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PostSubject: Battle is too slow   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:47 am

I know Matt and some others chatted about this before, but I just have to say that battles are really too slow, in my opinion. I don't know if it is better, worse, or the same in this edition than it was in previous editions, but the truth is I find myself getting easily distracted or bored during encounters. So, I find myself not paying attention and when it is my turn I don't always make the most tactical decisions. I kind of tried to play that off as having a hard-headed dwarf that isn't a fan of tactics, but that didn't seem to fly so well with ya'll. What's worse is it seems like a lot of the out-of-combat and RP features of previous editions has been removed or stifled, leaving us with very little to work with OUTSIDE combat, and as I said I'm not sure that has made things any better. I mean, it really does seem like they have tailored this stuff to fit nicely into a videogame or MMORPG, which will be fun when it is done, but I don't know if that works for me outside the digital realm in which I have a fancy graphical, "living" display and world on my screen to keep me interested.

By the way, this somewhat negative opinion is not a reflection in any way on Dean's DMing, I really thing it is a problem with either the new edition or it is my own personal issue with it. Maybe I'm alone in this opinon and if so I'll just shut up and try to figure out someway to get over it or work with it, but if not maybe we should discuss ways to change the rules or whatever in order to move things along more quickly or spice things up or whatever because as it stands it just isn't working for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:34 am

Quote :
What's worse is it seems like a lot of the out-of-combat and RP features of previous editions has been removed or stifled, leaving us with very little to work with OUTSIDE combat,

I have to say right off the bat the party has basically moved from one battle to the next and not tried to do anything out of combat. I have been a little surprised and kind of designed opportunities for the party but more or less they have just broken the way through everything. I dont know maybe Brack and Baern are just those types but so far they have been pushing everything forward. I am just kind of pointing out that it's harsh to call out a rule set when its all dictated by the groups play of it.

That said, I can see combat is moving a bit slow but I will still say this is only our what 2nd real session and 3rd or 4th battle so it's not really all in our heads yet. Like in 3.5E we knew a lot of the stuff and didn't have to look it up or check it or whatever but things are different. I still don't think everyone is in 4E mode yet either, this combat system is designed for more strategy like a war game. Personally I love it and could play with the combat for a long time even if it takes a bit longer, there is honestly less to remember than 3.5 but just more stuff going on. That is to say there are more effects but they don't last long and don't need a ton of writing down because the effects end quickly for the most part. As for being bored and such I don't know I think its more boring when there are fewer options and everything is pretty much the same each turn, I think as levels go up it will be more time between turns thinking about what to do next.

With all that stated I will say as of now this is WORSE for video game players because it is slower and more strategic, most video gamers want things faster and whatever so it kinda goes against that.

I was going to post something on this but I hadn't yet: I really think the Doomcock campaign ending so soon before the 4E one is throwing the game off for some people. Think of the beginning of that campaign, we had a battle with rats and shit that took a session and a half, not to mention it was mostly battle. Most campaigns to start are battle orientated and supposed to bring the players into the game and level up the players a bit (has kinda always been the tradition) so I designed this adventure thinking it would end with the players around level 3. On that note (and back Doomcock) I think players are looking for a LOT more than they should in a level 1 adventure. At the end of Doomcock we did have enemies and different allies and shit and there was more to consider but at this point the players shouldn't be thinking about a world altering scheme involving a band of goblins.

I am not sure what else to do because the fact a forum post is up about this means something is off. Maybe we have forgotten and Doomcock took time to "grow" into as well? Anyone remember, Patrick specifically as a viewer of Doomcock. Maybe I am not engaging enough with this adventure but I am trying to get back into this mode as well, after having played what 6 months as a player its kind of hard switching views. I am not using prewrittens as of now because I wanted to get my own creativity off but maybe that is wrong because I haven't written out 3-4 linked adventures as of now and so there is less built in intrigue and layered hooks and leads...maybe the party hasn't really got to a part where anything is happening with the adventure because combat is happening more and taking longer than I expected.

Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions for moving combat along. Only thing I thought of is lowering hit points because that's probably the biggest difference, but I think that was done because the strategy of the game is to support your strikers who deal the damage so that won't work because the party will mow (and be mowed) down a lot faster and risk a lot more deaths.
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PostSubject: Not thinking enough.   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:46 pm

Well I for one don't think the battles are slow at all. Maybe it is because for me I am constantly rethinking how I need to engage the enemies. If you don't like how the battles are going for you perhaps you could choose different powers that are more exciting for you. Having to run up and bash the monster every time can get a bit redundant and with this edition no one really has to do that. With my powers I am constantly thinking of ways to move to best hinder the monsters from attacking my friends. Unfortunately combat is a big part of 4th edition and how they made the rules so try to choose stuff you feel will make combat exciting for you. If you are having a hard time with Cleric you should try a warlord they can heal about the same and they have a ton of powers that you can use to control the battlefield. Maybe this edition is more like a video game but I still think the personal interactions we have this way are going to outshine any video game I have ever played.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:54 pm

Yeah like I had said above and Jon mentions in his post: The combat is centered around strategy, 3.5e wasn't as much about that
I have seen complaints that they turned it into a "war" game or that you "Have to have miniatures" to play, which I think they kinda did to promote their miniatures line or whatever.

But yeah maybe looking at another class is a possibility? Seems like in every edition though the like support classes (druid, cleric, bard) were not very fun to play at first and later got more stuff and options that made them fun. The druid had those growing pains of feeling boring at level 3 but by level 7 he had a bunch of spells and shifts and stuff and was interesting to play. I thought they had gotten rid of those growing pains but maybe they are still around? I haven't looked at level 3 cleric powers but I know other classes get some hot shit so maybe he will too? Or like Jon said think about the Warlord class. Really you don't HAVE to be a "leader" class if you don't want to since healing isn't the issue it used to be (second winds etc)

I personally think the ranger looks awesome in 4E but again you would have to be in the mindset of 4E, that you need to be thinking like a chess game not 3.5 where you just stand in one spot and duke it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:04 pm

There is a lot to address in what has already been posted, but I'll just make one point:

The Sarge wrote:
I have to say right off the bat the party has basically moved from one battle to the next and not tried to do anything out of combat. I have been a little surprised and kind of designed opportunities for the party but more or less they have just broken the way through everything. I dont know maybe Brack and Baern are just those types but so far they have been pushing everything forward. I am just kind of pointing out that it's harsh to call out a rule set when its all dictated by the groups play of it.
I don't think that this is a fair characterization. Perhaps in the first session, though there seemed to be a pretty clear path towards investigating the barn (and bear in mind that once there is an obvious next place to go, it is often not particularly fruitful to hang out and keep investigating, which often gets frustrating both for the other players and for the GM). In the second session, though, it was just the barn. There were no opportunities that I can see that we missed or passed over.

I think this is a large part of what makes Troy (and myself, for what it's worth) feel like combat is going slowly. It's not so much the lack of options or "video-game" qualities of the ruleset as it is the amount of fighting involved. (I think three solid hours of combat is bound to give anyone a bit of fatigue.)

My suggestion is to plan fights a bit more sparingly, since we now know that they do not go as quickly as we thought. Maybe save the fights for the climax moments, when it is most exciting and everyone feels like something important is at stake.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:01 pm

Well I'm coming in late so I might repeat what other people have said.

One I want to adress what Jon said that maybe it's just the Cleric wasn't the right choice for you. To me battle is really fun because I have a couple different abilities and have to think of what to do and who I can hit with the most AoE damage, or if I can push a monster back or hinder them in some way to avoid attacking a friend things like that. I find my mind wandering a littl during combat, which is natural, but a lot of the fun to me also is trying to do actions that I think the party can build on. So far it hasn't been successful because we have limited powers but it will grow in time. I would say if you want in your free time just take a look at other classes and see if anything pops out. I realize now that every party does not need 1 of each of the roles. I think we will be completely fine without a "leader" role, the lack of healing could easily be made up by having 2 strikers with taht much more damage flowing and the enemies dying faster. Or think of 4 wizards controlling the shit out of the battlefield and making it so no one could reach the party. Basically at this point I don't think it is neccessary to have a leader, kind of like Final Fantasy 1 (hopefully everyone can get on board with this analogy) sure the best party is fighter, Black wixard, white wizard, and thief... but you could just easily beat that game having 2 red mages black mage and a fighter or something, there is a lot of room to differentiate the party make up and might make things more interesting.

From what I can tell Battles are not slower at all its just so far we seem to have more battles than when I was DM'ing. So maybe this really just ends up being helpful criticism to Dean and say next adventure maybe plan on fewer battles so it isn't just one to the next and see what happens.

Dean mentioned that doomcok grew into their roles and playing and I totally agree. At first no one knew what to do and things were kind of messy, which they are now. but we will get used to it.

I started this post hours ago and left it and now I came back to it and lost my train of thought. Anyway, I think its a little too early to judge anything at all... Just go with the flow and don't worry about it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:54 am

Quote :
There were no opportunities that I can see that we missed or passed over.

I want to bring up Doomcock here for a second, think back to the graveyard adventure. We started and moved slowly fighting a glass zombie every few steps but slowly moved around without alerting guards. We got the back fought more zombies moved around the church and fought in the one house thing. Got in the house had a large fight and subdued an enemy and tried questioning but didn't get much and they raised an alarm and we had to run from another battle.
Maybe I am missing something but there was a grip of battles there and then some opportunity for roleplay with the capture and puzzle and whatever.
Now looking at the adventure so far, got to the town and moved on quickly (won't rehash but I expected more conversation with the people there...regardless) got to the first house and look at it, I specifically mentioned to two players a window. The setup honestly was if the party wanted to move quietly and investigate they could have had a chance to move in and not fight. But the party decided to break the door down, well battle starts. Capture a goblin and kill it (granted Wraith didn't want to but anyways) Ok let's check house two and break the door in and charge in to fight....k. 3rd house same story. Ok barn doors, alright we will throw open the main door and start moving through the hallways. Finally at the end we had Wraith trying to check stuff out in advance but ended up with the party moving in quick which is fine but naturally will lead into combat.
To me it sounds similar to the first scenario minus the party moving judicially and trying to get in less fights, the only real difference was there was a puzzle in the room but also keep in mind that was a later adventure not a starting point. The goblins aren't the Emerald Claw with some grand motives.
My point is I think there is a lot of dislike for the sake of dislike going on, maybe it's new edition anxiety but I seem to be feeling a lot of like nitpicking or looking for the bad in it from Troy and Matthew. I can't really figure out what to do because I think Jon and Patrick are having a good time with it (from my gut feelings but have to ask them).

Part of the impetus for the combat and adventure design was that it was new for us all and I wanted everyone to get their feet wet in combat so we can hopefully start getting the hang of our powers and not have to go over what they do every time. Also helping the party hopefully start working together in strategic situations but I guess that is failing.

I don't know I am looking for answers myself now; maybe my style will just clash because I have a feeling I will lean towards more encounters than Patrick's adventures. If that is going to cause to much headache or isn't liked by players then maybe I should step aside?
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PostSubject: Battle hungry!   Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 am

After reading what Matt and Dean are saying I kinda realized most of the battle stuff has been my fault. I really like the combat this is the first D&D fighter I have ever played that can control a lot of the combat through marking etc. Most of the combat that has happened has been because I charge ahead and break down doors and just rush to kick some gobby asses. This is also a role play thing for me as well, Brack isn't big on thinking ahead he pretty much is the bull in the china shop so to speak. Please feel free to "set Brack strait" after a fight tell him what he did wrong and try to explain why we should be more sneaky or go more slowly, he will understand if you use small words. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:59 am

Quote :
I don't know I am looking for answers myself now; maybe my style will just clash because I have a feeling I will lean towards more encounters than Patrick's adventures. If that is going to cause to much headache or isn't liked by players then maybe I should step aside?

I've decided that the problem isn't the number of encounters, your DM style, or anything like that, it is the context that the ecounters are occuring in. The reality is that we don't have a clear idea of where we are, who we are, why, what, or when because this world, as cool as it is so far, is still just too incomplete. We need a more rounded context, more depth, more answers, and an overall clearer picture which can only come with (a lot) more time.
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PostSubject: DOOMCOCK!!!   Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:07 pm

OK I think the real problem is that we all just miss Doomcock too much and we just never got the closure we needed for our other characters. So I propose we re-create our characters at 7th or 8th level from Doomcock with the new 4th edition rules (Dean will probably have to be a ranger with an animal companion for now since Druid class isn't released yet but hey he said he liked how the rangers looked) And then finish our Doomcock campaign thus allowing us all to play and learn the new system in a familiar environment with familiar characters with more powers to play with to get the hang of 4th edition better. WHO'S WITH ME!
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:06 pm

Brack wrote:
WHO'S WITH ME!
You serious?
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PostSubject: Serious.   Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:17 pm

Yeah I am serious I for one would love to play a level 7 'battle' wizard with 4th edition rules. Honestly I miss Doomcock a lot and feel like I need more closure before I can put my whole focus on a new 'world'.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:24 pm

Any suggestions for how to go about doing this? I'm pretty sure that Patrick expressed his strong desire not to DM anything anymore, and Dean has put a lot of time/effort into developing this new thing for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:38 pm

Well Dean has stated he might be willing to DM us in a more familiar setting if we prefer. That would mean perhaps Sarge and Wolfy wander off into the wilderness or some such if Patrick is really unwilling to finish off his campaign that he spent so much time putting together. I think we should schedule a time (perhaps this evening) to get on Vent and talk these three options we suddenly have (well I am really the only one suggesting the Doomcock option) through as a group and come to a consensus with the group. Would you guys be willing to discus?
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:45 pm

I haven't fully commited to it, but I think I'm going to take a week or two at least off from D&D. I'm seriously getting worn down by various things and I feel like I've just been a hindrance lately, not to mention that I just can't seem to get into the spirit of things.
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PostSubject: *smack*   Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:06 pm

*Punches Baern in the jujunum!*
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:41 pm

Bah, I'm an idiot. Of course I'll jump on for a discussion, though I really do not want to think about D&D for at least a few days in order to let all of this settle. Despite that though, check this out... I just did the stupidest thing... I sat back, looked outside, took a few deep breaths and forced myself let the built up stress go for a moment...Then, all of a sudden, I remembered that I NEVER play melee characters because whenever I do I ALWAYS get bored with them. Somehow, without even coming close to realizing it, I ended up creating a melee character in the midst of all this new stuff and then didn't realize it has been boring the daylights out of me, despite you guys pointing taht out several times. To top it off, I think part of my problem is that I've had my head stuck inside the Encounter Tool so much that I haven't taken the time to become familiar with the new ruleset as I should be, so it's no wonder I am struggling with the new stuff so much.

Okay, so the answer is maybe for me to create a diff character and read the PHB some more. I still like the idea of my guy, but I think I should try something else just to see how it goes. The only challenge I have to work through then is I really do kind of need to continue at least tinkering with the Encounter Tool because I still have some things that I need to learn for work, and it is my testing/learning/stomping ground... anyway, I'll figure it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:45 pm

I'm available if y'all want to discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:03 pm

Well troy, once again I would recommend re rolling a different character. It doesn't evenhave to be the leader role because I don't thin kit is neccessary at all to have one of each role so don't feel limitied by that, I know I won't be in the future.

As for the Doomcock campaign... I for one really do not want to DM at all right now. At one point I was really into it and enjoyed it but at the end I really was only playing the game because I had to in order for you guys to play. And since I'm being completely honest...... I didn't have an end for Doomcock I was still weaving a lot of different threads and hadn't tied them off yet. I could give you guys anwer to stuff if you wanted if there were some questions you had but I wouldn't want to go back to the Doomcock characters at all. I didn't have a lot of serious DM experience going into it and I realized way too late that I needed to start tying all my plot threads together and interweaving them and come up with an ending. I'm not really a good creative writer or anything and I was really just floating along as DM enjoying it as I went until the end. I've always been a player at heart and pretty much only took up the role of DM because I was the only one with the time to do it. I'm babbling as usual, but I know we ended the doomdock campaign a little abruptly just because I had checked out weeks before we ended, but even going back to it there wouldn't be a nice neat ending.

I will tell you that Sarge ended up being the encarnation of Eberron itself and was going to smite tank for being a "robot"... but it turned out Tank's unknown friend the lord of blades would come and defend but only after the entire dark lantern orginization assaniated all of doomcock at once for knowing too much... turns out they were wrong beause doomdock didn't know anyhthign but its too late.


I just had an epiphany... I think maybe the Eberron campaign was easier to imagine and roleplay for everyone because there was a very strong cohesive character background story namely being members of Doomcock. This campaign doesn't have that because we talked about and decided to do the classic hero tale of starting off as losers basically and growing into the heroes not starting off hardcore like doomcock did.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 am

Thats an interesting point and I have to wonder if Patrick is right. In that campaign the players made the back stories and got the party together so there was no "why are we together". I kind of brought that up but it kind of got said "well just make the party come together" so I did but for whatever weird reason the party seemed to start off bad with each other.

I have to really wonder if both Matthew and Troy's real life stress that poured over caused that first session to be odd between their characters and maybe as they say "you only have one chance to make a first impression" and it left you guys with a sour taste.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:04 am

Quote :
I have to really wonder if both Matthew and Troy's real life stress that poured over caused that first session to be odd between their characters and maybe as they say "you only have one chance to make a first impression" and it left you guys with a sour taste.

That could definitely be the case. If so, I'm not sure what I could have done about it, or what can be done about it now... other than just give it another shot and try to remain more aware, which I'm perfectly willing to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle is too slow   Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:15 am

Yeah I think that's the best solution at this point. I am a little disappointed, but hey ya know shit happens let's deal with it now and try and hope for better results.

I mean hey at least we had this all out now and not like 4 months into the campaign and just had it crash down. THEN I would be EXTREMELY bitter and angry lol.
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