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Amnon
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PostSubject: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:10 pm

Sooo... is it just me, or did this place get pretty quiet suddenly?
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am

Got pretty quiet last week for a while. At this point, I'm of course very glad to have any additional details from Dean. But I feel like I'm pretty much good to go. I figure let's just start, and we'll pick up on things much faster (and in a more interesting manner) by playing than just by reading. I think that Ashq sounds pretty cool too, and I'm keen to explore it. bounce

Any particular topics you'd like to talk about? I'm always good for some online time wastage. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:34 am

I'm not really sure about other topics because I'm pretty much consumed by the Encounter Tool project at the moment. I've been spending every free minute that I have on it, designing and implementing. So, I'm going to ramble on about that for a paragraph or two. I know you don't really have a large interest in programmer ramblings, so feel free to skip over all of this if you like.

I've done a TON of work on the data side of things, which is of course really important since the data is really the backbone of an application like this. Plus, a lot of the web interface will be dynamically created based on the data in the database. For example, the interfaces on a cuple pages will include checkboxes in which you can select Powers, and these checkboxes will be created based on the Powers enter into the database.

I've also got the web site template completed (look and feel), as well as a site map for all of the pages and major features the site will have, which includes navigation between them. Now, I'm going to create the various interfaces in which we can enter Player Characters, Non-player Characters, Powers, Monsters, Encounters, etc. Once I have all of that done, which I don't think will take more than a week, maybe two, I'll see if I can get the whole thing to a point in which we can start using it. Using it means that I (and anyone else that is interested) can start creating encounters, entering in our PCs, entering in relavent Powers for our PCs, and entering relavent monsters. My plan is to--at least at first--make is so that as we enter these things for our actual encounters, the database will remember them, such that it will reduce the number of monsters and Powers that I (and others) will have to enter myself simply as data entry .

The next phase will be to program the app in order to make it smarter, which is a phase that could take a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:07 pm

Yeah sorry I've been pretty lax about the forums lately. I don't know what it is, I always want to but other things always get my attention... I will just blame dean since I end up talking to him a lot about this stuff and then I don't feel the urge to come on and write a lot. I keep really wanting to finish the character questionarire so you guys can all see what I have in mind, but as I said I always get sidetracked... *sigh* too lazy to do the fun things I want to do, that is a whole new level of lazniess.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:10 pm

I blame WoW.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:44 pm

WoW addicts... *spits* pirat

You know, this could be the que for us to enter into a discussion about the correlations between videogame addictions and addictions to stuff like marajuana. I for one seriously believe that some people are affected by videogame addiction just as much as any other substance addiction. In fact, a LOT of the symptoms are the same and I don't think it will be long before we start seeing videogame addiction rehabilitation as a pretty commont deal.

Not that Patrick actually IS addicted, though statements like "...*sigh* too lazy to do the fun things I want to do, that is a whole new level of lazniess." might make one wonder. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:02 pm

Baern wrote:
You know, this could be the que for us to enter into a discussion about the correlations between videogame addictions and addictions to stuff like marajuana. I for one seriously believe that some people are affected by videogame addiction just as much as any other substance addiction. In fact, a LOT of the symptoms are the same and I don't think it will be long before we start seeing videogame addiction rehabilitation as a pretty commont deal.

I find this rather difficult to believe. What do you mean by "symptoms"? I assume you are referring to something beyond just doing the said activity a lot, in which case we're stretching addiction to levels that renders the concept somewhat meaningless. Are the physiological effects the same? Brain patterns? Are there common psychological patterns at work?
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:16 pm

The similarities I was referring to are not neurological, they are behavioral. In fact, I should probably correct myself and say that videogame addiction has more in common with other behavioral addictions (like gambling addiction or sexual addiction) than it does with chemical addictions, though there are of course various behaviors that are known to be associated with both types of addiction. Having said that, there have also been similarities drawn between videogame addiction and behavioral patterns associated with certain developmental disorders, such as Autism and Asperger Syndrome, which I only knew about because I wrote a short paper on this not too long ago.

Anyway, I did a quick Google of known symptoms of videogame addiction to see if I could find a nice list and here is what I found:

Quote :
  • Computer or video game use is characterized by intense feelings of pleasure and guilt.
  • Obsessing and pre-occupied about being on the computer, even when not connected.
  • Hours playing video games or on the computer increasing, seriously disrupting family, social or even work life.
  • Lying about computer or video game use.
  • Experience feelings of withdrawal, anger, or depression when not on the computer or involved with their video game.
  • May incur large phone or credit bills for on-line services.
  • Can't control computer or video game use.
  • Fantasy life on-line replaces emotional life with partner.

Source: Computer and Video Game Addiction

Most items of the above list could be applied to someone suffering from a behavioral addiction. And, while this list far from describes all symptoms of a chemical addiction, I'm sure you can see how many of the above would apply.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:25 pm

Interesting. Although I am very suspicious of this whole idea of behavioral addictions in the first place. If there is no physiological basis, then why is it that some people are addicted and others are not? How does one become addicted? Things like drug abuse and alcoholism have genetic indicators, as I understand it, so that smart folks who know that they are at risk can avoid becoming addicted; can you do that for gambling and video games?

None of which is to deny that things like gambling or computer use be very emotional parts of people's lives, and that sometimes these things (like almost anything) can be taken to unhealthy extremes. Calling it addiction, though, makes it seem like these people have no choice when it seems instead that they are making bad choices.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:23 pm

Quote :
... why is it that some people are addicted and others are not?

Could the same question not be asked about the use of alcohol, marijuana use, or occasional, social cigarette smokers? Why do some users of these substances become addicted, while some seem to be able to simply walk away from it without any effort at all? Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no clear answer to this question, but there is also little debate about whether addiction to these things exists, regardless.

As you mentioned, there is a mountain of research showing that genetics may be have to do with whether a person is predisposed to addiction. In fact, I know a child of an alcoholic has a 33.3% chance of also being an alcoholic, statistically. Of course, this is all based on correlation studies, and there is still debate over how much of an influence genetics has over alcoholism vs. the odds of learning to be an alcoholic. Then there is the debate as to the various types of addictions to various types of things, and whether people can also be predisposed to a certain type of addiction. I have no idea which has more of an influence, but there definitely is a general agreement that being the child of a person with an "addict’s personality" is correlated with increased odds that the child will also have an "addict’s personality". In other words, there are certainly people that are considered at high risk of becoming an addict (me, for example), but the mechanism that leads to that correlation is not at all well understood. Thus, whether a physiological addiction is more likely to be related to genetic indicators than behavioral addiction is very debatable.

Quote :
Calling it addiction, though, makes it seem like these people have no choice when it seems instead that they are making bad choices.

I completely acknowledge the idea that labeling someone as an addict can indeed give the impression that they are suffering from some ailment beyond their control. Unfortunately, that is a very common laymen perspective. However, I have a high level of exposure to addiction treatment (I have for most of my life, actually), both physiological and behavioral, and I can tell you that behavioral health professionals in general are often among the first to fight for their clients to begin showing ownership and accountability for their life circumstances, no matter what their "addiction" might be. Also, even in the case of chemical addictions, the physiological addiction is often the result of series bad decisions. I've known dozens of rehabilitated substance abusers (my own father included) that have told me their continued use of their drug of choice was, in fact, a series of bad choices, and that deciding to become clean was a good choice, all of which implies that even physiological addictions are often nothing but a series of bad choices.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:43 pm

You obviously have more exposure to this topic, both personal and academic, than I do. So for the most part I will defer to you. A few thoughts on your reply:

Baern wrote:
Could the same question not be asked about the use of alcohol, marijuana use, or occasional, social cigarette smokers? Why do some users of these substances become addicted, while some seem to be able to simply walk away from it without any effort at all?
Part of my point is that all three of these things are drugs. They have demonstrable, powerful, and cumulative effects on the systemic biology of the user. Cigarettes, in particular, are neurochemically addictive to a spectacular extent.

That is why I hesitate to draw equivalencies between addiction to physical substances and addictions to other activities. Not because there is no relationship, but because the relationship simply seems substantially different to the point that it's worth considering whether or not they are discrete phenomena.

By way of explanation, the good choices/bad choices thing was probably poorly worded on my part because I did not intend a normative judgment. One of the big things in history these days is what fans of buzzwords call "agency," meaning the capacity of human beings to alter their environments through conscious choice. Writing history which denies various people agency is a big no no. For example, it's unpopular to say that once Europeans arrived in North America the Indians were fucked, because that makes it seem like nothing they did had any appreciable impact on their ultimate fate. Same thing with the old argument about whether the Civil War was inevitable, and so on. One can take this too far, but as a whole the various debates around this whole agency thing have impacted the way that I look at things, and this addiction question turns out to be one of them. It strikes me that the "agency"--the capacity to determine one's own destiny--of a crack addict is limited, because his physical and cognitive reality is being altered by a foreign substance in ways that sabotage his ability to make "good choices." A sex addict, on the other hand, is in not so affected. So that's where that thing is coming from.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:51 pm

I think this turned into the most random thread ever...well wait most unexpected lol.

Real fast Matthew regarding like gambling addiction there ARE highs like that of drugs, like the "emotional rush" which is basically to say adrenaline is what most compulsive gamblers talk about. I mean personally as someone who loves gambling I know that's why I do it. Not really to win, winning is fun and a component of it, but the thrill of placing a bet on a random roll of a die and the risk/reward offered gives me that rush that I love about gambling. I try not to take it to the extreme (lose more than you afford to etc) but that comes with disciplining yourself and it goes back to like the drug usage Troy brought up. Some people don't like to gamble because that rush doesn't "do it" for them, but then other people love it. This is the only one I feel like I can offer my first hand experiance on.

Regarding games like for me I have played them a lot since I was younger and usually they were not like an escape or outlet for me (some people talk about violent games as a release but I dont get that feeling) it was always just something to do, like some people watch tv for 4-5 hours after work and people don't say much about it because its kinda just part of the social mindset of something acceptable to do. I can only see video games becoming an addiction if you use it to hide from something like family or a spouse or whatever. I can think of people I have played games with that neglect family and I never understood but it was like their time to themselves in a life that didn't offer that chance anymore. The funny thing is this concept of "addiction" to games only came up recently (that I know of) with the success of MMORPG's and such. The funniest thing about those is a lot of people I have known in game or read about were actually addicted to the social aspects, which is to say the game was just a way to socialize. Now I guess that bad part is sometimes people use it as a way to socialize that replaces human face to face interaction and are still hiding a bit in the game. Half hypothetical here but like in WoW you see younger players that will be real assholes and you have to wonder, do they act like that because in real life they don't get respect or something along those lines. But then I can see certain things like in WoW people who are worried about raiding and whatnot, to a lot of people its like being on a sports team or club meeting to where you plan things around it.

I think my conclusion (with no research behind it) is that most people with an addiction are actually just "using" to hide or get away from something in the real world. But I will accept that there are probably people that have biological addictions to certain things.

Like almost everything in the world letting something go to excess and interfere with other stuff is not a good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Wow ok, so I had a reply like half way through this thread and then realized it was huge and I still had like 4 more posts to read. Anyway, my only thing I have heard addiction doctors (dr. Drew for example) give the simpliest terms of any addicion being "an addiciton is when you continue to do said activity even if it begins to affect your life negatively" I realize that is a pretty broad statement but I think to be addicted to say a video game you would call it an addicition if you play the game and call out of work to go play. I think the aspect of it negatively affecting your life is really one of the few ways to see if non chemical additions are addiciting. You could even apply that to gambling, being addicted would be if you lose more money than you have, or something like that that seriously is a bad effect on your life. I think it's easier to see cigarette and alcohol addiction easier because of the chemical dependencies but personally i think there are defintiely pyschological dependencies. I don't even know if its true or just otheads trying to rationalize to themselves at this points, but the whole idea that weed isn't physically addicting but I've known more than a few people where just weed seriously negatively directly affected their lives and they kept smoking, where as someone else like myself can smoke and do it once in a while and have it not be a big deal and not affect anything.

To me personally anything like drinking, video games, smoking was always as dean said just something to do never to "escape reality" or deal with problems or anything. I think if that is the case then it isn't a problem. Now back to the matter at hand originally yes I play WoW a ton but I think I play because it is something to do, if I didn't do it I would just do what I used to do and play flash games on the internet, or play poker online, or read the PhB continuously. But another way of looking at it that troy said initially as a joke was i do choose to play WoW over other free time activities that I could do. I could go finish reading A Game of Thrones but I would rather play WoW, and I wanted to write my character background thing but played wow, not that any of these are responsibilities that I chose WoW over jsut other free time activites. Again I think it becomes a problem if you would call out of work just to play WoW, or something along those lines.

By the way, D&D related info I posted my character background so go read if you want.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:05 pm

On a side note: I blame WoW too.... I would probably admit I have a minor addiction to it haha
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:52 am

I don't play WoW more than 15 minutes per day.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:34 am

The Sarge wrote:
I don't play WoW more than 15 minutes per day.
I'm guessing that that's a dirty lie.
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PostSubject: addiction   Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:46 am

Just to point out and elaborate on something Dean said about physical reactions to addiction, EVERY addiction has a physical reaction. Most addictions whether it be alcohol or sex produce chemicals that effect the pleasure centers of the brain. This means that people with certain personality types and/or chemical make up are really just addicted to the "High" they are getting from said activity. This is what Troy was saying about addictive personalities. I have known a lot of addicts in my life and I have helped a lot of friends through difficult addictions including heroin and marijuana. I have also helped those same friends through other types of addiction such as to sex or video games. It seems like some people just HAVE to be addicted to something and the best way to help is to get them focused on a "healthy" addiction like work or D&D Smile . I sometimes wish I could have a bit more of an addicted personality as I can't seem to stick with anything for very long at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:18 pm

Wraith wrote:
The Sarge wrote:
I don't play WoW more than 15 minutes per day.
I'm guessing that that's a dirty lie.

A dirt flithy lie.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:19 pm

Quote :

Wraith wrote:
The Sarge wrote:
I don't play WoW more than 15 minutes per day.

I'm guessing that that's a dirty lie.


A dirt flithy lie.

Would you believe I only smoke like 1 rock a month?
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:44 pm

Since this is the thread for random topic changes... I still can't beleieve no one has commented on your avatar dean, especially Matthew!!! Dude, Matthew don't you remember playing dungeon master on the Apple II GS? Oh my god, where you had to go up to the portraits in the beginning and pick you guys and make you party, and the flux cage spell at the end?! Holy shit, why isn't there a flash version of that game on the internet yet!
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PostSubject: Oh   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 am

Ah, so that's where that's from. I totally didn't recognize it!

One of the best games ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:29 pm

Never played it.
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PostSubject: Apple II GS   Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:09 am

I even had an Apple II GS and I never even heard of that game I feel TOTALLY cheated now!
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:26 am

Brack wrote:
I even had an Apple II GS and I never even heard of that game I feel TOTALLY cheated now!
Oh, you missed out. I hoped you played Dragon Wars because otherwise your life isn't worth living.
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PostSubject: Re: Hello? (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ... (echo) hello ...   Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:44 am

Wraith wrote:
Brack wrote:
I even had an Apple II GS and I never even heard of that game I feel TOTALLY cheated now!
Oh, you missed out. I hoped you played Dragon Wars because otherwise your life isn't worth living.

I have two things to say to both of you...

Bard's Tale
and
Defender's of the Crown.

'nuff sed
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